Gold-making has a lot to do with numbers and math and other such things. Then there's lots of game mechanics to take into consideration. But one of the biggest aspects of gold-making that doesn't get the amount of discussion you'd expect is the interpersonal dynamics involved. Be it an intricate undercut, repost, modify fallback to attempt to change your competitor's posting habits setup or an actual conversation we are, in one way or another, interacting with other players; both buyers and other sellers. How these relationships are managed are of the utmost importance to gold-making success.
Like in life, there are a lot of different types of people and even more ways of dealing with them. I'm going to do a little series of the people who have contacted me in-game (or those I have contacted) and what came of our discussions. Names have been changed to protect the foolish.
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#2: Bernard
Ah, Bernard. Bernard's been around for a while, actually. I used to compete with his hunter on belt buckles and other crafted Blacksmith pieces but he wasn't really a big deal; he'd hit the AH hard for a while then fade away, as fair-weather gold-makers are wont to do.
I do believe he's been successful over time, either that or is just incredibly lucky because he has one of the only Mini Tyrael pets on Argent Dawn which, in my mind, is the badge of a rich gold-maker. Anyone can get a Spectral Tiger at this point; it's the Tyraels that are truly rare in my eyes. So when I would see him pop up, while I knew he wouldn't be a real pain in my side, I also didn't shrug him off as I would any other fair-weather competitor. In fact, you could even say he intimidated me a little bit.
Until he opened his mouth.
At some point during this encounter I rolled my eyes so hard I damaged the area of my brain that regarded Bernard as a threat.
The very brief backstory is that most gems on my server have been doing pretty well; no one's owning the market (myself included) and there's a good amount of profit going around. I do probably get more sales than most but I certainly don't have any form of control like I do with glyphs.
For whatever reason Bernard decided today he wanted to be "that guy" and he took several valuable Vermillion Onyx cuts from 160-220g to about 65g. He started out with posting several per cut; his statements lead me to believe that he expected me to balk and back off for a while. However, I continued to post. After a few rounds of undercutting him he began posting only one per cut to save on deposits and/or mail fetching time, and as you can see he logged off within an hour of beginning his short-lived coup.
Let us count the ways in which Bernard screwed up here.
- Whispered me in the first place, "taunting" me while calling me by my main's name.
This is a multi-part screw up; let's hit each of them. First off, he called me Faid despite being on Misten. I don't hide my alt so I'm not bothered but in a game where people don't even really register the names of people other than guild-members and competitors it's pretty telling when someone calls you by your main's name while on your AH alt. It shows they care enough about who you are to determine your alts (even if it's not difficult) and that shows that you're under their skin for whatever reason. It also is frequently used as an intimidation tactic; a way of saying "That's right, I know who you are. I've got my eye on you." I'm not sure if that was Bernard's attempt, but it's a vibe I often get from such encounters.
So then he decided to tauntingly whisper me. This is a clear sign that what he's doing is not likely going to last. How does it say that? It shows he is doing this for a reaction. If this were market manipulation, similar to a glyph wall strategy, there would be no benefit in alerting the competition to what you're doing. After all, they'll see it as soon as they hit the AH. The only reason to goad competitors is if you care about what they are going to think/do in reaction, and you only care about their reaction if you're doing this for them, and not for yourself. Once you're able to determine that someone is undercutting you as a personal vendetta (either specifically targeted or meant to be about being "that guy") there are two very simple ways to combat him:
1) Not care. Just don't care. Continue as you normally would. Undercuts and low buyouts may dampen my profits but words will never drive me from a market. :P The thing we tell kids is that if you just ignore the bullies they won't have any fun and they'll stop beating you up. Now, I think that's kind of shitty advice to give a bullied kid but it works pretty well in the AH; if their entire desire is to make people balk the best thing you can do is deny them that satisfaction and keep on trucking. It goes very well with the second strategy:
2) Either explicitly say (only if you're already talking like we were) or implicitly show that their tactic is completely ineffective. If someone's goal is to rob others of profit; which Bernard specifically stated was his goal, then making it clear you are perfectly happy with the new, lower profit margins will take the wind from their sails pretty much instantly. Given the rate I pay for the ore I honestly consider 60g to be a pretty decent price. Of course I'd prefer 225g but I'll happily sell gems at 60g all day long and, given that fact, Bernard's tactic was incredibly /facepalm-worthy. - Failure to Know Competition
Considering he cares enough to identify me and call me Faid I found it surprising he didn't have a clue when it came to my willingness to forego large profit margins long-term. I mean, I'm maintaining my glyph wall (currently @20g/ea) on the same character he's talking to/competing with. If he'd done half a second of research he'd see it's laughable to attempt to dissuade me by claiming he will forego profits long-term in order to keep prices low. - Empty Threats
I consider a three month glyph wall to be a short-term endeavour. You can imagine how I feel when someone boasts about ruining the market and quits within an hour.
After Vermilliion Onyx he moved on to undercutting a few Sun's Radiance cuts, then logged off, and hasn't been seen since, at least not in any market I care about. I was back to 150g+ sales on my gems within two hours and everything is peachy.
If you are going to threaten a competitor with market manipulation you sure as hell better be ready to put your money where your mouth is when they call your bluff; otherwise you will never be taken seriously.
Bernard stands out to me as someone who did nothing but hurt themselves by approaching me. Sammy, from the previous post, may not have gained anything but he had nothing to lose. Before this exchange I was wary of Bernard when I saw him approach the AH but between his actions and his words on this morning just past he has lost that completely. It's the perfect example of why you should never approach competitors; you'll usually end up giving up more than you're getting.
I'm more fascinated by the Mini Tyrael comment than anything else. How is a BoA, non-cage, pet the badge of a rich gold maker? Seems to me that would be the badge of a EULA/TOS violator.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that because one person can't figure out or afford something they automatically think that the other person cheated?
DeleteI don't have a Mini Tyael, but if I really wanted one I have confidence that I could figure out how to get one without cheating.
The only legitimate ways to obtain the Tyael is to have attended the 2008 WWI, pay cash money, or be given the code. In other words, the Mini Tyael is obtained through an out of game code. To trade in game currency for an out of game code is against the EULA. To assume gold was paid for the Mini Tyael means he violated the EULA. Why is that fact being overlooked?
DeleteI can't speak for others but I kind of look at it similar to coming to a rolling stop instead of a full and complete stop if an intersection is completely deserted: It's technically illegal but it's really not a big deal unless there's a cop watching, and even if the cop is watching they might not even care.
DeleteThey're not hacking or botting; they're just spending gold for something outside of the game. It is against the EULA (I believe that's true, but haven't read it myself) but it's difficult for Blizz to trace and doesn't harm other players. The only thing keeping me from doing such things more often is because you have no recourse if you get scammed. (Which, by the way, I have been scammed in just that way, though not for that particular pet.)
I think the general feeling is that people recognize and know it's not something you should do, but people are willing to look the other way since it's a private matter between the dealing parties that doesn't hurt their own gameplay. That's just a personal opinion; I can see why people would dislike it. To each their own on this matter IMO.
This is a very common misconception. The fact is that any pet or mount code item is considered an in game item and is valid to sell for gold. That is as long as the buyer is redeeming it. Buying the code card itself for gold, i.e. having it mailed to you and allowing you to resell it for cash would be against the ToS.
DeleteA few examples, there are unofficial TCG Buy/Sell/Trade threads that have run on the wow forums for years, they are all full of people selling codes and blizzcon pets. If this were illegal blizzard would not let that take place on their forums year after year.
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/7349425789?page=16
If there was anything illegal about the above thread blizzard would shut it down. Another good example is Warcraftpets.com which is not only the most informative battle pet website but home to the best pet trading forum on all of the internet. They have guidelines on what can be traded and what can't and they do everything by the book. Listing pet codes for sale there is perfectly legit. They do however point out that these types of transactions, while not illegal in game, are not supported transactions by blizzard. Because of that they have made a do not trade list, which only includes Mini Tyrael, Murky and the 3 original CE pets Panda Cub, Mini Diablo and Zergling. Considering the staggering amount of gold that those sell for they don't want scammers to set up shop in their forums.
Lastly, an official blue response to back up my original statement that these codes are considered a virtual in game item.
From GM Natryndon
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/71424-tcg-loot-cards-can-we-sell-them/
"Real world items for real world money = Fine.
In-game items for in-game gold = Fine.
Crossing them over in any way = Not really fine.
EDIT: To clarify, Trading Card Game codes (UDE codes) and "Blizzard" codes (Blizzcon pets and such) are considered in-game items, which you are allowed to sell for in-game gold."
There is another blue post somewhere stating that its perfectly legal as long as the seller activates the code for the region and the realm that the buyer is located on, which is what my code seller did with me. He did not sell me the code that I take to the wow website but rather he put that info and my realm in and generated the in game code himself which he traded me once I paid him. That's how you are buying a Virtual item, you are no longer buying the code on the card but instead the code generated at the website which is only good on your realm.
Trust me, I researched this in great length before moving 3 million gold to another server to buy codes with.
Being thorough never hurts. Just in case here are 4 more links to blue posts with GM's stating the above is legal.
Deletehttp://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/39051-policy-update-on-selling-codes-for-gold/
"We are completely aware of how sensitive this kind of exchange is, as well as the symbolic power it has achieved. Our intention, for the moment, is merely to allow the transfer of highly sought after in-game items that originate from products or events that are closely tied with World of Warcraft (which is to say, specifically and only, Convention In-Game Item Codes and TCG Loot Card Codes). "
Blizzard poster Malkorix writes:
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/152923-1922564909/?page=1
Blizzard poster Roraks writes:
"Keep in mind Dxa, that though the second code can be exchanged in game, the transaction is not supported. In these cases it's best to have the item itself traded to you rather than a code."
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/37636-buying-game-cards-ingame/
Blizzard poster Aredak writes:
"While unsupported, selling the loot code used in-game to redeem an in-game reward from the collectible card game is not considered in violation of our policies at this time. Selling a gametime code in-game, however, is in violation of our policies as this is not an in-game transaction; please refrain from participating in such transactions."
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/74867-selling-wow-tcg-loot-for-in-game-money/
Blizzard poster Irylinne writes:
"trading card codes are considered to be in-game items, and you are absolutely allowed to sell in-game items for in-game gold. "
Hopefully this will extinguish any shred of doubt that you might have as far as the legality of these transactions.
Hey Faid. Boater here, or Brongly if you would prefer. first of all I want to make it clear that I am not here to start some kind of war with you. I heard from two people tonight that you had a blog post up that was most likely about me so I thought I would check it out. After doing so I feel compelled to straighten a few things out.
ReplyDelete"Fair-weather gold maker". By my own account, I have earned well over 10 million gold since the in game statistics tracking has been live, I would hardly call that "fair-weather" but maybe that's just me. I have been successful over time, I have managed to buy many of the things that I have long desired in this game, such as just about every tcg item and rare pet codes like Mini Tyrael or Grunty. If you can get 1.2 million gold on Illidan I can connect you with a honest code seller that will trade one to you as well. Buying such things has nothing to do with luck though.
Your very brief back story is missing a few tidbits. Like the fact that you were undercut camping the AH and undercut my posts 4 times in 25 minutes. Posts that were undercutting yours by a few silver. Its funny that later in your post you refer to me as a bully, If I post auctions and 5 minutes later they are all undercut, and I re-post and 5 minutes later they are undercut again by the same person.. I consider that bullying. You are telling me that no matter what, my auctions don't stand a chance over yours. I have dealt with this many times with many sellers and I have found a simple solution. So yea, I will take a massive amount of inventory and post it all for dirt cheap. I will temporarily break the market. If I cant get a shot at normal sales than I will take the excessive profits out of yours.
Contacting you is not a taunt or a scare tactic. Its just delivering the message that this result is a direct consequence of your posting habits.
A section of your post that I especially like is - Empty Threats. Within two hours I was done and I have been gone ever since?
https://theunderminejournal.com/seller.php?realm=A-Argent%20Dawn&seller=Boater
- My seller activity for my JC toon. The auction listings by hour chart at the top will show you that I had 316 gems on Friday (the day this happened between us), 325 gems on Saturday, 277 gems on Sunday, 188 gems on Monday. You should really get your facts straight! You didn't somehow win and make me disappear.
I don't need to be taken seriously by anyone. There are some key things that you don't understand either. I owned JC for almost all of this expansion on AD. At my peak I was averaging 38k profit a day from gem sales and that went on for months. A few months ago the market became flooded with too many people trying to strike it rich like I had and I lost interest as I moved to other bank alts and other markets. Now I am left with boater with literally tens of thousands of raw gems, golden lotus and common quality gems for xmuting. There is no gold lost on him. If I sold every one of those for 50 silver each it would be pure profit. Its all the remains of a grotesque roman style auction house gold orgy that lasted for months and months. So when you figure that I am somehow suffering from my actions with you, you are entirely incorrect. Like I initially said I do get a laugh out of it though. Seeing that it bothered you so much that you had to write this blog post makes me laugh a little more! Good times on AD. <3.
Thanks for the reply, it's quite interesting. It's difficult to format this in comments but I hope I can keep this readable.
DeleteI would consider 10m since statistics were introduced incredibly casual, yes. Unfortunately I'd have to resub my second account to see my actual bank toon's stats but Misten has existed for ~2 months and has 1.4m, so 1.4m in two months vs. 10m in five and a half years. I'm sure you can see where I see the difference. That's not to say you (or anyone else who makes x amount) is doing it *wrong* but just that you are not a major player on the auction house. That's totally fine, it's not meant to be a put-down, but it's relevant to impressions of your auction house interest and abilities which was the subject of this post.
I will possibly get in touch with you regarding the Illidan situation; I moved my Horde toons over there before quitting but I don't even know if they have anything on them anymore. lol After a 600+ queue in off-peak hours I kind of nope'd right out of there.
>"Your very brief back story is missing a few tidbits. Like the fact that you were undercut camping the AH and undercut my posts 4 times in 25 minutes. Posts that were undercutting yours by a few silver."
I didn't mention this because, until you wrote this, I didn't realize that had even happened. Everything is so auto-pilot for me that I honestly didn't even notice who I was undercutting until you sent me a tell, let alone that I was doing it continuously. Granted, I wouldn't have changed if I had noticed, but just wanted to clarify that I didn't omit anything from the story deliberately; it was just not on my radar.
>"Its funny that later in your post you refer to me as a bully, If I post auctions and 5 minutes later they are all undercut, and I re-post and 5 minutes later they are undercut again by the same person.. I consider that bullying."
I'm thinking including the "sticks and stones" bullying reference was a miscommunication on my part; I don't consider you a bully; not now nor ever. From a personal standpoint you've always seemed nice; from an auction-house competition standpoint you've been a nuisance but hardly a bully. I included the bully statement as a more general approach to take when people try to intimidate people out of markets, should it come up in a reader's time on the auction hosue.
>Contacting you is not a taunt or a scare tactic. Its just delivering the message that this result is a direct consequence of your posting habits.
What purpose did "delivering the message" serve, then, may I ask? If you did not intend to make an impact or change something about the way I post, act, or think regarding the market why did you even contact me at all? I'm not being rhetorical/accusatory, that's a sincere question because I can think of no reason to contact a competitor except to give them pause for whatever reason. Perhaps you see it from a different angle and I'd like to hear it.
>https://theunderminejournal.com/seller.php?realm=A-Argent%20Dawn&seller=Boater
Delete- My seller activity for my JC toon. The auction listings by hour chart at the top will show you that I had 316 gems on Friday (the day this happened between us), 325 gems on Saturday, 277 gems on Sunday, 188 gems on Monday. You should really get your facts straight! You didn't somehow win and make me disappear.
My facts are straight as can be, but perhaps you don't understand what I consider relevant. Take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/l2l6Rjq.png
Did you post gems? TUJ says you did; I won't deny that. But did you post enough to have any discernable presence on the AH? No, not really. When you compare our heat maps, average quantity of auctions, and posting habits I don't think it's a stretch to say that, compared to myself, you're virtually nonexistant on the AH. (Once again, not a *bad* thing, people play the way they want. Just clarifying why I say that you disappeared.)
>So when you figure that I am somehow suffering from my actions with you, you are entirely incorrect. Like I initially said I do get a laugh out of it though. Seeing that it bothered you so much that you had to write this blog post makes me laugh a little more! Good times on AD. <3.
I imagine you don't read my blog often so I'll just assure you, I am neither bothered nor implying you are suffering. I write for others; for educational purposes. You are the second in a series, with at least five more people to be written about; each focusing on different ways in which would-be gold-makers can go awry when interacting with competitors. I understand that this may not interest you; most casual gold-makers don't really care for this level of examination, but it is of interest to some and you are but a case study. Thanks for your comments though!
Im pretty sure that 99.99% of the WoW community would not consider making 10 million gold over any period of time casual. Maybe Elvine or Fluffy would have a laugh at it but those two are just in a different league. I know people in the "gold game" that have struggled to make their first liquid million after years of trying and yet I personally would not consider those people casual. I also did not mention that I quit wow at the end of WotLK and did not come back until the end of Cata when the scroll of resurrection came out. During wrath I gold capped on several toons, many thanks to inscription and Chinese gold farmers cod'ing me endless adders tongue and eternal life (how i miss nobles decks). This expansion I managed to hit 5 million in liquid gold at my peak, if that's casual I guess I need to reexamine the definition of the word.
Delete>What purpose did "delivering the message" serve, then, may I ask?
As you said, "I didn't realize that had even happened. Everything is so auto-pilot for me that I honestly didn't even notice who I was undercutting until you sent me a tell, let alone that I was doing it continuously." That's the point. Sure, maybe in realizing that you were constantly undercutting me instantly would not change your outcome but that just tells volumes about your character. We all undercut, undercutting is part of the business, but continuously undercutting someones entire AH inventory within minutes of posting it, again and again, is just crass. My tactic for dealing with this when I was running JC was simple and effective. Friend list all your competition (which im sure you do), let them come on and post and just hold out until they log to cancel and re-post. I'm sure I am not the only person out there that runs an undercut scan the minute I finish posting. Its counterproductive to start undercut wars.
While your heat map is interesting and telling, your use of it is very deceiving. Boater has only ever been used as a JC toon. I separate all of my markets and have AH Toons and guild vaults for each market. Clearly you are posting everything on one toon. Sure you can say hey, look I posted 1200 auctions to your 325, but if you look at your breakdown, only 40% of those 1200 auctions are gems. And like I already stated, Boater is not in it to run JC, he is slowly letting go of his inventory. Sometimes I go a week or four without posting a single auction on him and then out of nowhere I will post a few thousand over a few days. If we were having this conversation a year ago things on my side would be much different but that's just not the case now.
Lastly I would like to say that I have read your blog for years. I am pretty sure I have even talked to you about it at some point over the years, maybe on my old xmog alt aabamogsales. I frequent all the gold blogs, have them bookmarked and check for updates often.
> "most casual gold-makers don't really care for this level of examination" - Yet again I do not consider myself a casual gold maker, I am sure I use every tool that you use. I spend lots of time studying markets on multiple servers (as I have gold stakes in 3 locations atm), and I am always digging through my TSM accounting data, figuring out what I am doing best, whats making me the most profit and making my future gold earning decisions based on that data. Anyways, sorry for hijacking so much space in your comments section, bitty needs to invent a long thought shortening system.
99.9% of the WoW community may not consider you casual; that's true. But this blog does not center around the masses, it centers around that small fraction of players who play the game to make gold, rather than make gold while playing the game. It seems that you may be defending yourself against my referring to you as casual, fair-weather, etc. and our disagreement there comes from our different view points.
DeleteIf we were in Trade chat I'd fully agree that, within that realm, you are on a higher level than most regarding making gold. However, we are not in Trade chat; this blog is specifically about making gold. When a teacher talks about Math to a group of middle-schoolers they might talk about geometry, basic algebra, etc. but when that Math teacher goes to a conference of mathematicians they will probably not even consider these things worth talking about; their conversations will reflect the context and will be on a much more advanced level. That doesn't mean that there's no merit in basic math or that advanced math isn't built on basic math; it just means that, within that group, everyone is so far beyond that level that it doesn't factor into the conversation. Likewise, the readers of my blog are typically people who already make exponentially more than the average player and likely more than you do (and possibly more than me!) or wish to be at that level.
This is where I'm coming from when I refer to you as casual or fair-weather; because within the world of serious gold-making you are. Within the greater community of WoW you aren't, but for this audience you are. For example, you've specifically stated you post sparsely and sporadically, aka casually, and that you backed out of a market that became flooded, thus are a fair-weather seller. Whether you view yourself in this light or not is up to you, but within the realm of serious gold-making you are a middle-schooler who's wandered into a conference of mathematicians. (I want to stress I don't think this is a bad thing; you seem happy with where you are and that's all that matters.)
>As you said, "I didn't realize that had even happened. Everything is so auto-pilot for me that I honestly didn't even notice who I was undercutting until you sent me a tell, let alone that I was doing it continuously." That's the point. Sure, maybe in realizing that you were constantly undercutting me instantly would not change your outcome but that just tells volumes about your character.
But that's not actually a *point.* What was the intended outcome of contacting me? You say the point was so that I was aware that you undercut me (since I'm on auto-pilot otherwise and wouldn't notice) but what difference does it make to you whether or not I notice you undercut me? That's what I'm asking here. You say it "tells volumes about [my] character" which I take to mean you were guaging a reaction; which means you expected a reaction from me, which means that yes, you did send a tell to me for a reason. What purpose did contacting me serve if the goal had nothing to do with changing something regarding me? I'm not saying there isn't/couldn't be a point, I just sincerely don't understand the rationale behind informing people you undercut them if you truly have no desire to cause a change in that particular person.
>While your heat map is interesting and telling... [truncated]
DeleteThat's true. I used to run 5+ selling toons but, alas, real money isn't as easy to come by as gold so I'm just running the one account. Regardless, volume is not the only purpose of the screenshot; in fact, not even the main purpose. It's also important to take into accoutn post activity and new auctions. I won't harp on this too much since I discussed the different views on definitions of casuals/fair-weather but that is what this is evidence of; that you don't sell at the same level as more-serious gold-makers. (I feel like a broken record but I really really really want to drive home the point that I don't think this is a bad thing at all or that you're doing it "wrong"; just that it's relevant to the discussion of learning about competitors via interactions with them.)
>If we were having this conversation a year ago things on my side would be much different but that's just not the case now.
Likewise. I miss Liquidate and 20-hour camping. :(
And don't worry about hijacking comments. I enjoy talking to you. Despite what anything here may imply I am neutral-to-fond of you. lol As far as opinions of people I completely separate social interactions from gold-making interactions and you've always been kind, so I consider you a friendly acquaintance. :) It's not often I run into players on AD that I can have intelligent discussions about gold with. Hijack away!
Hi : )
ReplyDeleteTotal Gold earned is such a useless stat.
I read that and my eyes sort of glazed over but im sure there was some good stuff after that...
*runs off to post some random vendor gear for goldcap then buy it out on 2nd account to inflate gold earned stat
............ but then remembers dont have wow subbed atm*
Maybe Faid's absence has let him grow into a slightly bigger fish.
Its a big ocean out there and plenty of room for different sized fishy fishy fishes
It really sucks that a handful of people who decided they'd look cool with an inflated total gold amount made it a "useless" stat in the eyes of everyone else. Not everything that can be cheesed is.
Delete#FunMath I think i could get to around 100 Million Total Gold earned and still have 950k gold left ^.^
Delete"Its all the remains of a grotesque roman style auction house gold orgy that lasted for months and months." Boater wins the day for the most unexpected and striking metaphor I've ever seen applied to gold-making. lol
ReplyDeleteBoater doesn't come across as a casual gold-maker to me. It just seems he's not as active as he once was. I've always considered myself a "slow and steady" gold-maker.
ReplyDeleteI don't seem to get as "intense" into gold-making as others I've seen out there but that's just what works best for me.
The level of dedication and focus people apply to gold-making never ceases to amaze me.
I might have a unique perspective on gold-making since I interact with new gold-makers as well as veterans but in my estimation Boater doesn't seem to belong to the "middle school" of gold-making.
If I was a teacher he'd rank much closer to the "hardcore" end of my curve.